Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, it's Jeff. And welcome to another episode of the Home Builder, Marketing and Growth show. Today, I'm super excited to have a special guest here with me, Kevin Weitzel, who's a partner at Outhouse. Kevin almost needs no introduction. He's well known throughout the industry, so I'm super excited to have him here on the show today. So Outhouse is an outsourced services company for home builders that creates digital marketing assets. Kevin, welcome to the show.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Thank you. And it's great to be here.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: Today we're covering a really interesting topic. We're talking about digital content and affordability. So in this race to digitize everything and basically one up the Joneses or keep up with all the other builders in your market, what we want to talk about is at what point do we need to consider the affordability of all this? Both in the affordability of creating those assets and creating all these digital components, attaching them to your website, tying them to your CRM and your erp, how do you fund all of that? But also, at what point does this come into play when we're talking about housing affordability on a more larger scale as well? So, Kevin, I'm excited to talk to you about this topic. This is something that you're passionate about, and I think it's a really important topic.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: I agree.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Kevin, before we dive into things, give us a quick background about yourself. Introduce us, introduce yourself to the audience and tell us a little bit more about you.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: All right. I've kind of got a little bit of a Forrest Gump life. You know, I was a son of a first generation American. I'm actually a first generation American born of a Holocaust survivor. And we've always lived on the south side of the tracks, the poor side of the tracks. You know, it was. It was a little bit of a struggle. But I did, however, find my way into cycling and I became a professional cyclist. I was raced professionally from 85 to 89. I was an Olympic alternate in 88. After that, I went into the United States Marine Corps. I was a sniper with 7th Marines for eight years. After that, I came back to the bicycle industry for a little bit and then went into the motorcycle power sports industry. I rapidly moved up in the ranks with the likes of Harley Davidson with Ride Now Power Sports, and with Van Tile Enterprises. And then of course from there came over here to the home building industry. I've been here for eight years.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: Holy cow. That's quite the diverse background.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Seen lots of things, done lots of things.
Tell me a Little bit more. Then how did you get involved in the housing industry and specifically with Outhouse?
[00:02:26] Speaker B: So, because I had helped set up what's called a BDC. It's what we call in the home building series, OSC's online sales counselors. Because I helped set that up on the motorcycle side in the car industry. I had. I was. I had a pretty valuable book of work to work with. Plus being so heavily involved in sales at the time, Outhouse had been pretty comfortable with referrals. They just get referral from one person going from company X over to company Y and then saying, hey, we like working with Outhouse. Let's continue doing so. But they're finding with more competitive, a larger competitive landscape, as well as a little bit more offshore competition that they needed to instigate and install a sales program. So I was asked by my lifelong friend Stuart Platt, one of the other principals at the company, to come over and help establish a sales system. We established the sales system and he said, hey, why don't you stay on? So that's where I've been ever since. And I love it. I honestly don't really see myself in any other role.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Sales is just in your blood then.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Not just the sales, but the consultative sales. You know, those relational sales, the relationship sales. You know, it's one thing to believe in a pen and sell that pen. It's another to believe in or to sell a product that, you know, can add a benefit to, to somebody's sales process, to their marketing outreach. That makes a big difference. And that's something that really fuels me.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's super. That really resonates with me too, because I think a lot of what I do is consultative selling as well. Right. And I think that home builders and marketers and stuff like that, they're A lot of the knowledge is really broad. Like, I often talk with our clients about the fact that they wear so many different. Right. Like, they're not just responsible for digital. They've got show homes and events and all these other things that they have to worry about too. And I think that when you slow down and really, you know, help them to understand the why, not just the what. That's really powerful. That's something I love to do. I love hopping on a zoom with people and just getting into it. Right?
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:04:23] Speaker A: All right, so let's dive into digital assets. What are some of the big challenges that you're seeing right now in the industry with people like adopting these digital tools?
[00:04:32] Speaker B: Well, the challenges are going to vary depending on what market the builder is in. So, and what size the builder is. So, you know, like what affects Dr. Horton or Lennar when they have to make a decision on whether they're going to implement IFPs, that expenditure is just a flick of a needle. That's, it's nothing. It's. It's a blip on a radar. Whereas if you have somebody in the other end of the spectrum, let's say somebody in wyoming that builds 19 homes, 20 homes a year, that can be a rather much larger portion of their spend, their marketing spend too, if they want to implement that technology or not. So not only does it come down to the size of the builder, but also the market. So let's look at that same example again. Let's say you have a national builder that's building in Texas. You know, if you're building in Texas, you have to be much more competitive than you would be in, say, Wyoming. Let's just go right back to Wyoming. You know, in Wyoming you're going to have much more of that sprawl, much smaller communities. Even their, their municipalities, the population is much smaller. There's less of a magnet of people moving to Wyoming than there are to people moving to Texas. So when you look at those factors, again, it's a, it's a different mark. Then you also have to look at, within your, within your competitive landscape in your own micro market, who are you competing against now? So if I'm in, if I'm in Wyoming and I've got, let's say there's 20, 30 builders, I think total in Wyoming, and out of those builders, they're all hovering. I think the largest builder in Wyoming might be doing 100 homes a year, if that. But most of them are hovering at, you know, 20, 30 homes or less. So with that being said, how much more competitive they do they need to be on the digital front if their competitors aren't? That makes sense.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes, that makes perfect sense. So, like, what would you recommend to a builder then as far as those digital assets go? Like, is there a priority of what you think there. Are they weighted differently?
[00:06:24] Speaker B: There is. So when you. Let's, let's take that Wyoming builder again. If you look at a Wyoming builder, they don't have to have, you know, like virtual walkthroughs and stuff, although it's very nice and it is affordable for them to do it. But it is no longer acceptable for the buying market out there, especially with the Internet the way that it is for them to have black and white stick drawings of homes. They have to have 3D photoreal renderings. It's no longer acceptable to have these scrunchy looking tiny PDFs of floor plans when they could have an interactive floor plan. It's no longer acceptable for you to have a community with. You're selling in a community where it doesn't show any lot specificity as far as what's available, what's not available, or even lot premiums or costs or the amenities that are there. That's an expectation of the consumer. So if you don't have that, you truly are being left behind. I mean, you might luck into just having the right product and the right dirt when you happen to sell. But what it really comes down to it is that if you don't keep up on even the most basic digital assets out there, you truly will be left behind and be in. And I'm not saying that you'll be left behind that you can't sell a home, but you are taking much less seriously than your competition that is embracing that technology 100%.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Whereas now let's take that same scenario and let's go to Texas. Not only do you have to have that, but now you've got people that are tying in real time pricing. So now they're connecting it to their ERP in the back end. That's pumping the pricing data directly into their, into their floor plans. They have not just an exterior rendering, but they have a visualizer that shows you how you can change all the different color schemes and materials and sometimes even structural options. Then you elevate it even past that and then you go into the interior of the home and we're not just looking at stills, we're looking at a true animated VR or a user controlled VR experience. So those do elevate the cost. But now let's look at the affordability of that cost. You know, there's a lot of builders that go, oh, we can't afford that. That's expensive. You can if you are a typical builder building in a community with let's say three, four model homes. Okay.
Eliminating just one model home. Literally just one. You can completely fund every digital asset you could dream of for that entire community's homes making full virtual models. So let's look at, let's look at Europe and Canada. Let's look at the Canadian market. Affordability of product, not of the digital assets, but of the actual product. In Vancouver is pricing a lot of people out of market.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: Oh yeah.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: So do they want to take load up all the kids in the station wagon. Do people still drive station wagon? Minivan, I guess. Do people want to load up their whole family in the minivan and drive four hours to Kelowna just to do a walkthrough of a home, whether it be open or not, or trying to find where they are on a map? Or would they rather just do a virtual tour from their home before they make that trip to maybe dial it into just a few options they want to look at? So those are the kind of considerations you have to think of, is that we're in much more transient society. If you're just selling to somebody who wants to upgrade their home, that's one story. However, if I'm moving from California to North Carolina, well, then you need to have your digital assets up and ready and snappy.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense because like you said, that's what the consumer is expecting now. And especially because a lot of people are moving not just within the city, because, yeah, within the city it's easy to go out and do tours, but. And that's a whole other topic. But definitely for the people that are. They're moving greater distances, that's definitely a requirement. And I know even, I mean, like you, we look at dozens and dozens of builder websites all the time, and. And it's such a stark contrast between the ones that have those kinds of assets and ones that don't. I mean, you just don't spend any time on a website that doesn't have that anymore.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: You know, it is funny that when I. When I know when I'm talking about micro markets, if I look at like a North Carolina, they're kind of buttoned up pretty tight. If I look at builders in North Carolina, it's pretty rare to find somebody that is so. I'm going to use the term hillbilly. That's so hillbilly. They're just not competitive with everybody else. For the most part, they're all trying to stay up, at least keep up with the Joneses. Maybe not one upping, but at least keeping up with. If you go to a market like Kansas City. Kansas City is insane because they have the whole spectrum. They have everything from way back in the woods of hopefully this stick drawing and a couple of images of the home will. Will do you do you enough to want to contact us all the way through to full virtual tours. They've got the entire spectrum. So how a builder would compete there, I don't know. It's a mystery.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's tough. You know, it's. It's funny too because I think I talked to a lot of people that are, that are professionals in this industry and a lot of what we see all the time is that it's, there's still this old school mentality. Right. Like it's build it and they'll come. If I just build a beautiful new show home in that area, we'll sell homes. Right. And you will. But I think the biggest thing that people miss is that consumers are spending so much more time shopping from their couch first now. Right. Like 80% of that. If somebody's walking into your show home they're 80% of the way through their home buying journey already. Right. Like they've started to narrow it down and they're, they're going we want to check these guys out and those guys out. But that's because they've spent time on your website and so know, I think across the industry we're starting to see a decrease overall in show home traffic. And I think part of the reason is that because people are spending so much more time shopping from the couch. And on the other hand the people that are coming into the show home probably are better quality leads as well. Right. They're closer to a sale.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: I think they're self qualified. They already know what price is. They're know the area. They've, they've already looked at a poi map and they can see, you know, like what the different amenities that are around the community that they're. That is going to enrich their lives. Yeah, they, they already know what they're looking for. They know the square footage of the home, the, the layout of the home completely even sometimes they're design packages they can choose from. They'll walk in with a sheet of paper, hey, here's what I want, write me up. That's quite common nowadays.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely it is. And that, I mean it surprises me too. We just finished doing a whole bunch of secret shops locally here at Edmonton. Over the last month and a half we've been going out and popping into show homes and just trying to get an idea what the experience has been like. And the one thing that absolutely baffles me is how few show home sales representatives try to get contact information.
I mean, you know, you've got somebody that's shopping, they've left their house, they're not on their computer, they're in your show home. You need to do something to grab their contact information.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Do you think they're depending on too heavily on like geofencing that they're hoping that, that retargeting that they can get from geofencing will, will drive that client or that potential buyer back to the website? Or do you think it's just true laziness that they're just not keeping up with typical practices of, hey, I need your contact information so I can get in touch with you?
[00:13:16] Speaker A: I think it's two things. I think, I think one of it, when the market's hot, sales reps get lazy, right? There's always going to be people walking into my show home.
I think where they sell themselves short is that like, how many more sales could you do if you were capturing some of these contact information? And then on the other hand, I think that it's also because they don't have a comfortable way to get it right. Like when we were secret shopping, a lot of the times we get asked like, hey, can we get your contact information but we're not going to contact you. And I'm like, then why do you need it? Like, if you're not going to contact me, why do you need my email address and my phone number?
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Because they're going to contact you.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Well, exactly right. And so if, if, if you're saying you're not going to, but you're going to now, you've just ruined your, you've stained your, your rapport and your, your trust with me, right, As a consumer. So you can't take that approach. Digital assets are so important. And that's what I always tell builders. I'm like, find something to send them if they come into your show and be like, hey, you know what? I've got a, you know, we've got a great virtual tour. We've got an interactive floor plan where you can take this model that you just looked at and configure it how you want. Give me your email address, I'll send you a link to it. It's very, you know, it's not in your face, it's not a big ask. You're adding value and you're capturing that contact info, but you're also setting the precedent there that you're going to reach out and talk to them again, right? So that's a really easy way to do it. And I think, like, that's why I'm all for all the digital assets that way to, you know, keep people moving down, down that sales journey, down that home buying journey, but also keeping that door open to be able to consult with them, right?
[00:14:58] Speaker B: So it's not just the, it's not just the fact that all these Sales tools. They could be taking my job. They're, they're stealing my thunder. It's about the salesperson that is savvy enough to understand that if they leverage those tools, it makes their process so much easier and their close rate faster.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: 100%. Yeah.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: So, you know, you, you mentioned something a little earlier about the affordability and you also have mentioned it about the, the close factor. You know, like we've been the mentality and it's no secret in the home building industry that the home industry moves technologically slower than a lot of other industries. Almost, probably every other industry except for maybe Teletype. I think that one's still back there in the stone ages. But anyway, do people still use Telespoon? I don't know, but that was an aside. But it's not just the getting rid of the mindset of, well, we've been selling homes like this forever. We don't need these technical tools. We don't need these digital assets. We don't need these, these niceties because we're still going to sell homes. But it's not just that you're going to sell homes. There is an X factor on how many more homes will I sell. But now let's think about something else that, not that the sales team can interspot, but the bean counters do, the investors do. How much faster can I sell these homes? So if I can shrink that time, that reduces the amount of carry that I have on that land, that puts money directly to the bottom line and it's a hefty amount directly to the bottom line. So the faster and the more that you can do, that's self compounding.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. How quickly can you turn the money over? Right.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: But tell me, what is a commonly held belief about these digital assets, interactive floor plans, renderings, things like that you passionately disagree with?
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Well, I passionately because there's a lot of things that. I'm a passionate guy. There's a lot of things I'm passionate about. I know this one is that we've been doing. The big one is the obvious one. We've been doing it this way for so long, we don't need them. That's number one. That's got to be the thing I'm most passionate about. It's like you need to up your game because if you keep doing things the same, you either one won't be relevant or you won't be in business 10 years from now. Okay.
But I would say the other one would be that you have to have the latest and greatest. I truly believe that you don't. I believe that you have to have a consistent package of presentations on your website. So if you have renderings, you don't want to have photos of some photoreal renderings of others and then some stick drawings of others be consistent across the page. So I'm very passionate about consistency. I'd rather see somebody with an older technology rendering, like maybe more of a colorized 2D rendering than having a couple of 3Ds and everything else being stick and photos. So that would be number one. Number two is that the implementation of products like IFPs. So you're gonna have to follow me on this one. This one kind of can get in the weeds, but there are multiple ways that you can put an interactive floor plan onto a website. You can have it open up a new tab. It's called a responsive open. You can have it in a modal, you can have it in an iframe, where it's just contained in a little package right on side of the builder's website. The old school thought is never let them leave your website. But guess what? Apps are everywhere. Things are hidden as apps or apps are hidden on your website to where they function. Just like your website. It's totally fine. But let me tell you about lead generation. We've been tracking, we've been doing interactive floor plan since the 90s.
And when you look at the fact that we've been tracking tens of thousands of IFPs across hundreds of builders across not only the United States, but Canada, Jamaica, we have customers in Jamaica and Guatemala and stuff too. But if you look at the data, if you have it in an iframe contained in a website, it's one lead for every 40 visitors. That's one out of 40 chances you have of people coming onto your website and clicking or looking at a website or looking at an interactive floor plan, okay, if you have it open up into a responsive, open into a new tab, not replacing the tab of the builder. But in addition to, there is a 1 in 9.5 visitors lead conversion. So would your salespeople rather have 1 out of 40 chances or 1 out of 10 chances? So your website provider that tells you, oh, it's, it's better if we put in an iframe. Well, there's a reasoning for that. They tell you it's better to put it in an iframe because number one, it makes their numbers look better. You know, the average home builder only gets two to four minutes of average time on their website. That's it. Every visit. The average time across the country, it's two to four total minutes time.
When you implement an interactive floor plan, it can double, triple, quadruple, even quintuple the amount of time people spend on your website just with that one piece of sticky digital, that digital component alone. So not only are you extending the amount of time that people are spending your website, they're more further engaging in it. You would want to have that on there. So again, it comes back to do you want to have that responsive open or do you want to have that iframe option? But now let's fast forward to today, Jeff, we're running into another problem. The other problem is AI, its ability to read content so very rapidly. And when I say rapidly, like as of right now, AI doesn't detect things that are contained in iframes. Is it going to be the death of the iframe? I don't know. I'm sure there's going to be some sort of workaround. But as of right now, if you have your product in an iframe, AI is not able to aggregate or to assimilate that information and be able to use it in its entirety. So I didn't know that. Another reason why a lot of builders are wanting it that responsive open or having it in a modal, because a modal is actually part of the website and therefore it's contained within and therefore AI can crawl it. That's another problem we're running into. So when I say I'm passionate about it, I'm passionate about making sure that the industry stays relevant and yet looks at technology not as a limiting factor or not as a, I absolutely have to do this, but to consider the pros and the cons of it before they think, oh, I've got to jump into this because AI is ever evolving. You know, we, we partnered with open house AI and they provided a, an overlay for IFPs. An AI overlay that, that seamlessly is right on top of our IPs you wouldn't even know was there.
And it's constantly, you know, learning and evolving and changing that data sets that, that we provide to builders. Will Zhang, the, one of the principals of the company, said that he's having to redo all of his AI code because just in what has that been three years now? In less than three years, it has practically become irrelevant. It's already, it's already morphed and changed so much that he has to rewrite the code to match this new thing now does A home builder need to keep up with that? I don't think so. I don't think a home builder needs to care about that. The industry, that industry takes care of itself.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: That's fascinating. I didn't know that about AI code. Not being able to read an iframe.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: That's really interesting currently, but I know it's changing.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think it's fascinating too to see more and more builders starting to adopt AI and especially more like prop tech coming out. That's AI driven for this industry too.
Because I know that, you know, for us in our agency, we're using AI tools constantly. You know, like I have ChatGPT and probably one or two other tools that I never close the window. They're always open. I'm always using them. Right. So, yeah, it's, it's really interesting. I think it's going to help make the industry more efficient. I think it's, it's. I often refer to them as like power tools. Right. It's one of the power tools in my tool belt as a marketer. So I think the more that you leverage it, the more efficient you can be and the more that you're going to be able to keep up the.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: The guy, the best guy with a hammer, the most efficient hammer. Can't keep up with a nail gun.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. I use that framing example all the time. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. As far as digital assets go, then, Kevin, what's something that you believe that everybody should stop doing?
[00:22:51] Speaker B: As far as stop doing, I would say stop trying to. You know what, let me rephrase this. Let me go with. I'm going to use a phrase that a lot of people probably aren't aware of. It's called IBS. ITIS. IBSitis is where home builders go to IBS and they see all the new shiny bobbles that everybody has, all the awesome software, the fantastic services and products that people are providing, and especially when you look at the digital side. And why do I call it ibs? Itis because they come back from IBS and what do they do? They reach out to all their potential vendors and they're like, hey, I saw X. I need to find out how much it costs. And we saw why and we want to know why we need to have it with us. And then we also saw Z and Z. We absolutely have to implement. And they don't realize that this stuff's expensive. It is expensive. Now there are ways to make it affordable and there are ways to implement it to where it is less painful to the, to the bottom line. But when it really comes down to it is I'm passionate about. If you have systems in place, don't throw out the bathwater with the baby. You know, the baby you still need to take care of the baby is making sure that your, your current marketing structure is in place. So when you're going to. What I'm passionate about there is that if you're going to stop doing anything, stop worrying about trying to rehash everything, maybe your website's a different story, you want to revisit your website every one to three years, that, that needs to either be completely facelifted or at least updated in a consistent basis. But when it comes to your digital assets, and it's not a set it and forget it, you still want to make sure those are still relevant too. You want to evaluate your current partners. But again it comes down to that connectivity. And a lot of times people want product A, but when they look at product A, they find out that it can't actually attach to their system. Why can't it attach their system? And let me give you a good example. Let's look at, let's look at an ERP so you can have. There's a multi. Multitude of ERPs out there and some are cloud based, some are not. The industry's largest ERP is not cloud based. It is not API connectable. So as a standalone tool, it's a fantastic tool, it's an affordable tool. But can that, can that ERP push real time pricing via API to your interactive floor plans? No. Can they push real time pricing to your design, your digital design tool, like an envision tool or something along those lines? No. So instead of worrying about your digital assets and what can or can't work, worry more about your infrastructure and how that can feed things. Sometimes you have to change the entire infrastructure to match what the capabilities are of tech.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really, really good point.
You know, coming at it from the same, same angle as well like one of the things that I preach about is, is having a marketing framework that, you know, having a software infrastructure and a marketing framework that you're not constantly reacting to the market, right? And any new tool, whether it's, you know, renderings or Internet interactive floor plans or Flipbooks or whatever the latest fandangle thing is, it's like stop and take a step back and look how does this bolt onto the framework? If it doesn't bolt onto the framework, maybe it's not worth it, right? Or like you said maybe you need to update the framework, but the framework should dictate what it is that you're going to add into the mix. Right. Because if it's not going to directly impact that framework, if it's not going to move those key metrics and move those numbers around, then maybe it's not worth the time, maybe it's not worth the investment.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: Well, then it comes down to connectivity, Jeff. So even more so on that, let's scrap the erp. Let's look at something that every marketer, every salesperson, every home builder knows and that's their website.
A very popular platform for websites is WordPress. It's a fantastic platform, it does its job, it's very universally accepted and understood, but it's a page based system. So if you have a page based system, guess what you can't do with that page based system? You can't put all the data points on there. That feeds MLS, that feeds the livables and the realtor.coms and the Zillows of the world. None of that data can be fed directly from the website. It has to actually be extracted with some sort of overlay or some sort of reader, some sort of XML extraction and then a feed. Whereas your website, if it is database versus being page based, it can feed all that stuff automatically.
So there you go.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it all all comes down to the infrastructure, right? The foundation that you're building on top of. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And it's funny too because I mean, so many builders in the industry are building on WordPress, right? We see it all the time.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: Well, it works for so many builders. You know, there's no reason for them not to use it, but it works for what they're using it for now. However, when they go, when they get that IBS ITIs and they're like, we want to connect our real time pricing, we want to connect our erp and it's like. And we want to have all this stuff pushed magically right to the Internet and to all these different listing sites. And by the way, we also want anything that's saved to be able to be pushed directly into a contract. Well, guess what? It doesn't work on WordPress.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So moving on from that then, Kevin, what do you think that everybody should start doing when it comes to these digital tools?
[00:27:53] Speaker B: I would say instead of having a flunky, this is, this happens a lot. The brass of the company says, hey, we need to have X. Let's just, let's just call it interactive floor plans. That's an easy one. We need to have interactive floor plans. So what do they do? Do they go vet three or four different companies or do they have Suzy, that's the marketing assistant, go get pricing for interactive floor plans? Well, guess what, they just did. Now they're rating and as soon as it goes through the demo and talks to all the different suppliers that she can, that she can reach out to and she gets all the pricing, well then is it just a price driven decision or is it a function driven decision? Because if it's a price driven decision, it might be the cheapest, but it might not suit all of your needs. It might not be data connectable, may not be platform connectable. Those are the kind of things that builders really need to start considering is that don't just look at the price, look at the overarching benefits of what you can get from partnering with vendor A, B or C. Yeah, no, that's.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: That'S a great point. I think there's so much importance needed in understanding the decisions that you're making beyond just like, what is this, you know, robbing from the bottom line, if you want to put it that way. Right? Like understanding, like you said, connectivity. And. But I think as well too it's important for, you know, like vendors and service providers. I mean, I talk about this with homebuilders all the time. Like, you have to educate people on how to make a decision, right? You have to tell people like, these are the things that you need to look into. These are the questions that you should be asking. These are the things that you should be preparing and this is how you make a decision based on that. We do this with home builders, you know, with the marketing, right? With lead nurturing. Teach them how to make a decision. Don't just rely on them to make the decision on their own. Because like you said, most often it comes down to price, you know, or that price value balance.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: So, Kevin, then what do you recommend? You know, if somebody's getting started down this pathway, then like, do you, do they put all their eggs in one basket? Do they, you know, do really broad search, like what, what kinds of things should they be looking at? G. Give us your expert insight here.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: That's actually a great question. As a vendor, I'll selfishly say, you know, Outhouse would love anybody that wants to use us to use us for absolutely everything. However, the harsh reality is that there are best of category. You know, if somebody comes to us and they're looking for IFPs hands down, I'll roll up against anybody with our IFPs. I think we have the best IFPs in the industry. Same thing with site planes. We're actually quite, quite affordable as well. But there are some benefits to having everything done by one company. There's also some hand tying that goes on with having everything with one company. When you're attached to that one company, they might have some shortcomings, you know, like, let's just look at all the different aspects. Let's look at it like a rendering. If you're looking at rendering, it's common knowledge that Focus360 is one of the best renders on the planet. They produce some of the most photoreal and highest quality product out there. When people ask me point blank, actually, I'm going to give you an exact example. Local homes one time asked me, they said, hey, if you had our budget and you were in charge of it, what would you do? I said, honestly, I would use us for our interactives and I would use Fooocus for your, for your renderings and VRs. They love that. And guess what? They did exactly that. They're using us for their interactives and they're using Fooocus for their VRs. You know, Enugo has the industry's best visualizer hands down. They've been doing longer. They've made improvements from day one. You know, and not to plug all my competitors because that's kind of crazy. But what it really comes down to is that there's tons of pie out there for all of us to, to get a piece of tons.
So what it really comes down to, it comes down to what's going to work for you. I personally am not, although I love it when clients do what we call wall to wall. They use this for literally everything. It's fantastic. But, but I truly do recommend that they look for the best of each category that doesn't affect their interconnectability of the platform.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. That's so vital.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:47] Speaker A: So no, I love that answer. It's, you know, it's interesting too because I talk about that a lot as well. Right. Like, you know, we have a multitude of competitors out there as well, being an agency. And, and when people like, well, what do you do that you feel like you do better than everyone else? And for me, that's lead generation, lead nurturing. Right. Like pretty much nobody else out there is doing lead nurturing, not anywhere close to how we're doing it. So like, that's where I kind of stick my stake in the ground and hold my flag, right? I'm like, this is what we do better than anybody. But you know, when it comes to digital ads or anything like that, we have, there's lots of other people out there that do it. And this, you know, I'll be honest, there's other people out there that do it better. And I would rather people use them.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Just don't let it affect your ability to connect platforms. If you. A good example is if you want to use company A for your renderings, but then you want a visualizer, guess what? The company that provides a visualizer doesn't want to use company A's renderings. So you'd have to get your renderings from that same company. So you have to think about that when you're making those buying decisions. Well, if we're going to be using a visualizer and this company doesn't have one, or we really like to visualize over here, you really need to go to that company for those visualizers. Same thing with the interactive floor plans. If your interactive floor plans tie with your site plan to where now you can hover over lots and see the various homes that are built there. You want to make sure that those two are connectable when you make that decision.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's important. That makes sense. So, so Kevin, tell me then you said that outhouse feels like they're very strong with inter interactive floor plans. Then what have you guys figured out in relation to creating interactive floor plans that sets you apart?
[00:33:23] Speaker B: Well, you know, the gap between the best and the next best is constantly shrinking because technology is one of those things that it's either shared or learned. Once, once it's been invented, then you have that share to learn that you have the people that are just learning it. And as they learn it, it gets better and better and better. One thing that we still do head and shoulders above anybody else is that most other ifps out there are stacked images. Meaning you click an option and another image slaps on your page. Click another option, another image slaps on your page. So if you have a client that a potential buyer that's in a strained bandwidth, you know, poor Internet, old computer, God forbid, a dial up modem, whatever they have, you know, if you have that type of scenario, that can make for a very painful process with ours, you can literally hover over any of the options and see them in real time, showing up on the imagery without even having to select them. So that's a big plus. I don't really know if anybody else that does that. If, if, if there is, that's something new to me. But for the most part it's usually that we're competing in stacked imagery, which we abandoned that technology probably 14, 15 years ago now.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:34:29] Speaker B: Yeah, so we're, we're competing against some pretty old timey stuff. That doesn't mean that stuff is bad. They, they're still visually stunning, they still look amazing. It's just that, that slow load factor and we were pretty quick to be mobile first.
We were mobile first on the first, the first issuance of an iPhone. So we went from designing our IFP product to not just being web friendly but also being iPhone. Not just iPhone friendly, you know that phone friendly, but actually phone first. So we definitely design it there first and then backtrack it to the website.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Cause I was just gonna ask about that, how that plays in on the mobile standpoint.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: So there's very few that don't, but there are still a few that doesn't work on iPhones. Pretty crazy.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. Well and then of course without, you know, being on mobile, you're thinking about data load and stuff like that. How much data needs to be downlo in order for those different options to display and that sort of thing too. So yeah, interesting. When it comes to these different digital assets and these different digital tools. Kevin, what do you think is a problem that many people are headed for right now?
[00:35:40] Speaker B: And we've kind of already touched on it, but I think the biggest problem that people are going to have is that they have invested in platform X, Y or Z and platform X, Y or Z just does not have the ability to connect to the various attributes like ERPs and CRMs that are out there or contracting systems or being able to push data.
That's going to be the linchpin. And what's kind of going to force a company to have to change their process, change their game. The person to consider using a different product or event, different vendor, getting back.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: To that connectivity that's really such a big part in the whole ecosystem that we're seeing unfold in front of us right now, I think is making sure that everything can talk.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: It's paramount. It's paramount. It really is. I mean, you wouldn't build a website that couldn't be seen on Google. You know, why would you build an IFP that can't be, can't connect to your CRM or that can't receive real time pricing from your erp? It just, it wouldn't make any sense.
But there are products out there that don't and builders and they, they've used them because it's the way they've done things. I'm using finger quotes the way they've done things for the last 20 years. Well, guess what? Things do change.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So that brings up a really good question that like we talked about a home builder being on their website built on say WordPress or something like that. So if you have a home builder that comes to you that they are built on WordPress or a pages based system like that and they want to implement interactive floor plans and be able to pull in that data and pricing and options and stuff like that, how does that work?
[00:37:11] Speaker B: That's when I have to take off my salesperson hat, I have to put on my educator hat and I have to let them know that. Well, based on your scenario that the WordPress site that you have, we can implement everything that we do onto it. However, your ability to be able to push this, they've already learned. Your ability to be able to push that data out real time to your contracts, not going to happen. Your ability to be able to push that out to the various, you know, listings platforms that are out there, not going to happen. You have to have those real time changes in data points, not in page setup.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: So they have to have a database then a database driven system that's driving all of this.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: Basically you do to connect everything. If you just want to extract an XML and then put that and then add that to your feed to where that goes out to the Zillows and the realtor.com in the world, then you can do it that way. But it doesn't bring in all the other digital assets and the changes. So let me give you a scenario. Let's say you're on builder, you're on that Wyoming builder's website and you save a plan and you save it to Lot 42 and you know what the price is because they have real time pricing up. And you know what the, what the lot premium is for lot 42? Well, when you save that, it not only saves that lead to their CRRM through an API, but it could also, when they contract that out, push it dynamically right to their feed showing that new product is sold. Changing their, they can already change their interactive site plan, their interactive site map where it shows that in real time, but then it can actually push it out to your MLS to show that's no longer available, it's now sold or it's pending. It can change those statuses in real time.
Right. Now if you don't have a database website, you have to do all that through an MLS or not mls, but you have to do all that through a download feed from your website.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: And it still won't carry over that finite data. It's just going to carry over the fact that lot 42 is now sold.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so really then the connectivity, if as long as you're planning it and doing it properly, I mean really, it's designed to, for efficiency. Right. It's gonna make everything more efficient. Everything's gonna update automatically when there's changes like this and it takes the human factor out of it. Really.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:20] Speaker A: So Kevin, tell me something new that's going on over there at Outhouse that you guys are really excited about. A recent accomplishment or something along those lines.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: What could for your listeners with all the small digital nuances that we've made changes to and made some fixes to and, and creating some streamlined process. But here's what I will tell you. I'll tell you that almost company wide we have changed our pricing structure. We've actually lowered our costs a lot of things because what we did is we assessed our margin, what we're making on product and we assessed what we were being charged for like for hosting and stuff like that.
And after that assessment we've realized that we could lower the price of some of our products. So we've actually lowered the price of almost everything that we do. There's a few exceptions that we just, we're so skinny on and begin with and we wish we could add some profitability into it, but we've, we've set our sights on a set profitability and then it's allowed us to become even more price competitive in the market.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Wow, that's incredible. That's almost unheard of because most people go the other direction.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Yeah, we've raised our prices on nine different SKUs, if you will, that we.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: Offer and everything else. Everything else is more affordable now.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:40:33] Speaker A: Amazing. That's pretty awesome.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: So Kevin, we've been having this really great conversation about technology and trends and stuff like that in the industry. And I know that you and I are both kind of tech nerds this way. So, you know, I love this topic and a lot of marketers always looking for, you know, what's the latest and greatest emerging tools. Right. So let me ask you, what do you think are the upcoming technologies that are really going to shape this industry? I mean, AI obviously is a big one. What are your thoughts there?
[00:41:01] Speaker B: So AI is the 500 pound gorilla in the room or 10,000 pound gorilla in the room for that matter. But that is changing so rapidly that I don't think the home building industry can keep up with it. I think that home builders need to consider themselves kind of relegated because we are such slow adapters to being at that leading edge. You can take industry experts like, you know, you've got Will Duderstadt that keeps his finger on the pulse and all this, you got Kevin Oakley that keeps his finger on the pulse and all this stuff and they're constantly dabbling. Well, let, let the people that can afford to dabble or have the time to dabble, let them do that dabbling to find the little tools and tidbits that work and be at that leading edge with them, be ride that wave with them. However, to be in the bleeding edge, to try to put your eggs into one basket and hope that this one AI thing that you think is going to work, that you dump a whole mess load of money into, is going to be the answer, that could be a major fail. So I would say to know your place, stick with the I've been doing it this way for 40 years mentality. To a certain degree your website's been operating, your sales team is still functioning. What it really comes down to is to be cognizant of that leading edge and be part of that leading edge without dripping into bleeding and without being left behind. That would be the best thing I could say for emergency technology, because there's so many different things that builders need and every builder is different. So if you're that builder that doesn't have anything tech, then start looking at some simple stuff, ifp, site plans, virtual tours, that type of thing. But if you're that builder that has all that stuff and you're wanting to snazz it up with some AI, then definitely let yourself stay in that leading edge category instead of the bleeding edge. That'd be my best advice.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: No, that's a really good point too. And like, obviously AI is moving across, you know, multiple different channels or pathways in our industry all the time.
And I know that you're well connected with a lot of the individuals that are talking about AI or that's, that's their business. Are there any particular AI tools or any particular channels there that you think people ought to spend maybe a little more attention to than others, or maybe they're a little bit further along than the others?
[00:43:07] Speaker B: Well, there's Claude and chatgpt, they're in the same category. I personally prefer Claude but the whole concept of that allowing you to write more intelligent copy is a big plus and more accurate copy. Again, it still needs to be your input and your editing and your moderating of it. Not to just lean on it directly and competently and completely, I should say. But yeah, that is definitely a big plus for our marketers. Some of the other AI covers that will cover like the analytics from a website, those are very big pluses. You know, where the traffic is, where your touches are, where your hotspots are, that's another big one. But outside of that, I'm going to leave it to the people that are full fledged nerds instead of just a closeted nerd like myself.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: That's a great answer. I mean, Kevin, we've been talking about all this different technology again, AI kind of nerding out over all this stuff, and I've really loved that conversation. But one of the things that we really want to tie this discussion about technology and trends and stuff like that back into is the overall picture of housing affordability, which obviously in Canada and in the US is a really big topic, really serious topic. But what are your thoughts on that?
[00:44:27] Speaker B: I have a lot of different angles on this. Again, coming from a poor family, the south side of the tracks, 100% empathize with people that can't, that are, that are just subjugated outside of the home building industry. They can't afford to buy a new home. They can't come up with a down payment to be able to buy a home, even if they have an income that would support making payments on a home. But the harsh reality is that there's some things that just aren't going to be changing. The cost of dirt is not going down. There's, there's no, it's, it's a, it's a finite commodity. There's only so much of it there, especially when you get into the big cities like, you know, your Toronto's, your Vancouver's, your Phoenixes, or I mean, there's only so much width you can go out. So the price of dirt isn't going down, your cost of labor isn't going down unless, unless we're going to institute slave labor somehow, who knows? But for the most part, your labor costs aren't going down. Your materials are going to be set to whatever the profit margin is that those suppliers are going to have. So that's not really changing that much either. Again, they're not coming down. So you can only make your lot so small. But then when it comes down to Is how are you, how efficient are you at keeping your bottom line healthy? And if your bottom line healthy is just buying tons and tons of digital, digital stuff to sell your product that doesn't have an ROI or can't prove itself with an roi, then you need to reassess where you are with what you actually need. For the builders that have some, I'd say my best advice is to get consistent whatever level you're in, and then make improvements from there. But get that consistency in place first.
Because it doesn't cost a lot to be consistent. It might cost a lot to implement something new. And sometimes that cost can be offset with the return of faster sales order timelines on. I guess that's the same thing as faster sales, but shorter timelines on selling your product.
So that does have a tangible opposite on the other side of the equation. But if it's just adding cost just for the sake of trying to keep up the Joneses, I would definitely say to reassess that, think about it before you make those moves. And I know that's counterintuitive from a guy that sells digital tech, but what it really comes down to is you have to mind your P's and Q's.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you got to always act and you know, coming from a guy that sells digital tools, you got to act in the best interest of your, of your user as well. Right. And I think that that's something that you and I share as a belief. Um, I agree. But you know, making sure there again, it's coming down to that foundation in that framework. Right. It's understanding. Like, do these things make sense? Are they going to move metrics? Are they, you know, like, we're not just buying the latest software because it's fancy new and there's a buzz around about it. Right?
[00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:04] Speaker A: You know, what's, what's the practicality of it? I think that's really important. Yeah.
Well, Kevin, I've super enjoyed chatting with you today. Um, I like to end these off with this kind of lightning fast round where I ask you a bunch of silly questions and it just gives us a bit of a taste of who Kevin is. Right. So are you ready for the lightning round?
[00:47:24] Speaker B: Let's do it.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: All right. All right, Kevin, what's your favorite book and why?
[00:47:30] Speaker B: The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein. And the reason why is because it reminds me of the. How selfless my mother was with just giving of herself, even if it was to the point of being harmful to herself.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: If you could have Dinner with any three people, dead or alive, who would they be?
[00:47:46] Speaker B: My mother, because she appreciated the simple joy of just eating out my children because they're the world to me. And last would be Gallagher. Just because he was such a crazy comedian, smashing all his watermelons and just his. The way his mind kind of twisted it would be. Gallagher would be my third guest.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: Kevin, what's your go to comfort food?
[00:48:10] Speaker B: Lasagna.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: Lasagna.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Any casserole, but lasagna is it.
[00:48:15] Speaker A: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
[00:48:18] Speaker B: Live for today, but plan for tomorrow.
[00:48:20] Speaker A: That's solid.
If you weren't in your current profession, what do you think you'd be doing instead?
[00:48:26] Speaker B: Be a high school history teacher.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Really? Why is that?
[00:48:31] Speaker B: Number one? Because I believe that we should learn from our mistakes in history. Even though history is written from the perspective of the winners. But that's not the point. But the fact that I. Not only do you learn from it, but you can also teach the next generation how not to make those mistakes. I think we're lacking in that right now.
[00:48:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree with you there for sure. What's a skill you've always wanted to learn but haven't?
[00:48:55] Speaker B: 10 key. I am envious of people in the automobile industry that can just clack away the 10 keys practically error free and come up with full estimates in a matter of seconds. Never. I've always had to use my home row and regular old single finger 10 key. But man, if I could learn 10 key. Although it's kind of archaic now, but 10 key is the bee's knees to me.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: What's your guilty pleasure? TV show or movie?
[00:49:21] Speaker B: I am a glutton for any dark comedy. If there is the more twisted, the more irreverent that it is, the more I am likely to watch it and binge it and be glued to it. Ignore all other things in the room to watch it. Yes, pretty much any dark comedy.
[00:49:39] Speaker A: Nice. What's the favorite? A couple of favorites that come to mind.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Pretty much anything. Coen brothers, you know, Raising Arizona, the Big Lebowski. I like some of the just as simple slapstick stuff like stripes, you know, but. But yeah, the. The darker and the more twisted it is, the better it is.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: If you could live anywhere in the world for a year, where would it be?
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Hawaii. Afghanistan.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: Hawaii is amazing.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: I've been there three times. I'd wear Hawaiian shirts 24, 7, walk around with flip flops and just chill. Live the method.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: Which island would you go to?
[00:50:14] Speaker B: Kauai. It's the least populated as far as development goes.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Very cool. I've been to Maui and Oahu and Oahu was very commercialized and Maui was like condos and way more laid back.
[00:50:28] Speaker B: But sadly the entire island complex is being overly commercialized. But there's still some, there's still some places. Kauai is one of them. There's. There's some, some nice spots in the Big island that are, that are, that are still relatively out there. But yeah, it's almost all the major centers there are all commercial now.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's becoming more and more popular. What's your favorite way to unwind after a long day?
[00:50:51] Speaker B: Hands down, I have over 300 or 3000 records in my collection. Dropping a record on my hi fi.
[00:50:58] Speaker A: Love it. Love it. I'm a big music fan too. Don't have records but I stream Spotify nonstop. I love it. Big music fan. So what's your favorite vacation destination that you've ever been to?
[00:51:12] Speaker B: Ireland and Scotland. It's a tie because they are. Even though they're in the same region, they're the same area, they are different in their own special way. But Ireland and Scotland, man, if you could ever take a vacation there, that is the place to just go and chill and be with the people and you know, have conversations with the people. Are so flippin friendly there it's ridiculous. They don't even try to be, they just are. It's just the nature of who they are as a people.
[00:51:37] Speaker A: What's the most memorable gift that you ever received and why is it special?
[00:51:41] Speaker B: I'm not really much of a materialistic person. I would say to be really out there, kind of almost cosmic. Life was the best gift that I've ever received. My mother and father deciding to get sweaty with each other and make a Kevin, you know, the gift, the gift that keeps on giving. I get to experience just being so I'd say life is the best gift I've ever got.
[00:52:03] Speaker A: That's pretty special. If you could time travel, would you go to the past or the future? And why?
[00:52:08] Speaker B: Well, I live in the present. I'm a firm believer in living in the present and to understanding the past.
I'd like to keep the mystery and the fun of the future a mystery. So I think if I had to choose between one of the two versus just staying in the present I'd go to the past and if so I'd probably go to the 50s just so I could see mid century modern architecture in real time.
[00:52:34] Speaker A: What's your favorite beverage? Alcoholic or non Alcoholic.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: I have some favorites on the alcohol side, but there's nothing that beats artisanal soda. I love some crafted soda pop, sugar water.
[00:52:47] Speaker A: What's. Yeah, what's your brand? What's. What's one of your favorites?
[00:52:50] Speaker B: I pretty much anything, but I'll try anything other than just the plain corporate sodas out there. I'm not a Pepsi Coke guy. I like all the small, independent bottlers, you know, the knee highs of the world.
The problem is that with a lot of the brands that are out there, a lot of them are small, private label brands, but they're just re. Like Knee High is a good example. Knee High isn't the original Knee High from mash. You know, that Radar Radar drink. The Knee High now is just a regurgitated version of it that they've just re. You reuse the brand name, but there's a. There's a brand called Blenheim, which is a. Which is a ginger ale that literally will light your nostrils on fire.
It is. It is the spiciest ginger ale you could probably ever try in your life. But that one is definitely my best, my favorite.
[00:53:39] Speaker A: Last one for you, Kevin. What's one item on your bucket list that you are determined to accomplish?
[00:53:45] Speaker B: Determined to accomplish.
I don't want to go dark here, but I'm gonna have to go a little dark.
My bucket list item that I'm determined to accomplish is that I will exit this earth on my own terms.
I want to choose when I leave, not wait until I'm in a nursing home and can't take care of myself. I don't want to be that. So my definitely going to accomplish item in this world on my bucket list is exiting my own, my own way.
[00:54:18] Speaker A: Awesome, Kevin. Well, hey, before we wrap up here today, I just want to ask, do you have any final thoughts or any final advice for the audience about, you know, tech and everything like that? We've talked about affordability. Give us your final thoughts.
[00:54:31] Speaker B: I'm going to talk to the mid to small builders, the top 100, top 200, top 300 builders. They all know what they're doing to a certain degree. They saw their faults too. But I'm going to talk to those bottom 9,000 builders that are out there.
Be consistent with your product offering, with the digital assets that you're choosing to use. Consistency is king. Having a big, sloppy page of a whole bunch of different things is so disenchanting. It's. It's nothing to engage with. And then start to adopt the things that allow your potential buyer to engage with your product. Interactive floor plans, interactive sitemaps, visualizers, virtual tours. Start to implement those into your library of ways to market your product.
[00:55:13] Speaker A: Solid advice. Absolutely. Kevin, thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed having you on the show today. I really appreciate it. You know, every time you and I get together to have a chat, it's always laughs and it's good times. So definitely value my friend. Let everybody know. How can they get a hold of Kevin?
[00:55:29] Speaker B: Well, first off, right back at you. I value you. I appreciate what you do over there at velocity 23. Fantastic organization.
But how do they get in touch with me? I'm on both the socials and when I say both the Facebooks, I'm going to say the Facebooks because that's how the old people say it. I'm on Facebook for the social side and then I'm on LinkedIn for the business side. They can always obviously go to the Outhouse website and get in touch with me there. Literally everything flows through Kevin at Outhouse. So if you just click an information button, it will get to me.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: Awesome. Sounds great. Well, thanks so much, Kevin, and thank you everybody for tuning in. We've got a lot more exciting guests to come. We've got more episodes coming out on our mini segments where we're doing little marketing tips and HubSpot for home builders where I'm sharing tips that we've learned working with HubSpot for the last 13 years.
So, yeah, thanks again for tuning into the show. Would love it if you subscribed and if you thought there was some good value in the show today, give us a rating and watch for the next one. Thanks so much, everyone.
