Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, it's Jeff, and welcome to another episode of the Home Builder marketing and Growth show. Today, I'm super excited to have a special guest here with me. We're talking with Greg Bray from Blue Tangerine. Greg almost needs no introduction as he's a well known professional in the building industry. Greg's the president and co owner of Blue Tangerine, a full service digital marketing website development agency serving the home building industry. He's also the co host of the Home Builder Digital Marketing podcast and the Home Builder Digital Marketing Summit, an annual event drawing the top builders from all around the country, where they come to learn the latest tactics and strategies for new home sales and marketing. Today we're going to be talking about a topic I really love, and that's how to turn your website into the ultimate sales machine. Greg, welcome.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me, Jeff. I appreciate the opportunity to be with you today.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: I'm excited to have you on the show, Greg. My first experience on a podcast was on your podcast, so I'm really excited to have you here on my show today as we start growing and building an audience. And it's an honor. So, Greg, for those that aren't really familiar with who you are, maybe just give us a bit of background, give us a little intro on yourself.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, again, thanks for having me. I am the president of Blue Tangerine and we are a digital marketing and website development agency. Our goal is to help every home builder have a sales generating website. And so we do that by helping with the full construction everything that goes into building a site and maintaining it and hosting it, optimizing it, supporting it, and then all the things that drive traffic to that site. So things like SEO, Google advertising, social media activities, both organic and paid advertising, some support for email marketing, things like geofencing and other types of programmatic advertising. And then we tie it all together with analytics services. So that's kind of the big push of who and what we are. Me personally, I come from a web development background, so my education in bachelor's was computer science, back when there was only one computer degree. Now there's like 50 you can choose from. And so I kind of got into the Internet early on when it was brand new and really never looked back. Loved building websites. And obviously websites are core to the marketing function at most companies. And so even though I come from a technology standpoint, I quickly realized that there's a marketing piece here and I need to understand that and be able to talk there. So did some graduate work in business as well to help me understand that better. And it's been fantastic being in this industry for so long.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. And you're so right with the core, just the need for that, having that website and it being such an important component. How did you get involved in the home building industry specifically?
[00:02:58] Speaker B: So I ended up after my first job out of school, I was doing some website development under a government contract. So we were working like with the Department of Defense and the Environmental Protection Agency. And this was early on when the Internet was a brand new thing and we were just helping code documents and put them out there for people to be able to see what was available. I'm so old, Jeff. That PDF was brand new, right? It was, it wasn't even a thing, right. It had to code everything by hand and stuff. So just kind of showing my age there, but it ended up at an agency that was owned by a former home builder. He had kind of sold out what he was doing in home building, wanted to get into kind of some venture capital, invested in some small Internet agencies and startups, introduced us to some of his contacts in the industry. Home building is such a good fit for the Internet, especially then. Everything is now, right. But especially then because of the research component of the buying journey that goes into that. And the website is such a critical part of all of that journey and has been for years and years. And so it just kind of made sense. So we started working for some builders, built up some expertise in that area, and things kind of evolved from there.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: Nice, nice. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, the amount of research required to purchase a home, I think a lot of builders really underestimate that.
I know when we're talking with prospects and customers, and sometimes the narrative there is, well, that information already exists on the Internet. Right? Like they're finding it's already out there. Why do I need to have it on, on our website? What's your response to that? When somebody says something similar, you know.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: There is so much information out there, and most of it's about your competitors or the alternatives, not you. You know, it's like, I still remember one of the usability guidelines we got a long, long time ago is always remember that most people spend most of their time on somebody else's website, not yours. And so you can't be totally different in the way that you operate without a really good reason and without recognizing you're going to have to educate. So when you get into this idea of, well, it's all out there. Well, is it? Is your stuff out there. Who, if you're not the one telling your story, who is? And what is the story that they're telling? And is it the story that you want to be told about you? And it could just be the story that I can't find you. That might be the story. Well, I saw a sign, but then I went home and looked and I couldn't find them. And so. Oh, well, never mind. Moving on. I've got too many choices and alternatives. It could be the story of, well, do they do x or y? I'm not sure and I can't figure it out. Or how much does it cost? Is it really, for me, I can't figure it out or I can. And so I move forward in that conversation. So I think as a brand type of exercise, you want to control your story. You want to control what people not control. Like, oh, I'm in control, but you want to be the one telling it and be the one that is defining who you are to your audience. And that's your website.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And you have such an opportunity to influence the way that people view your brand and also influence the decisions that they make going through that buying journey. I mean, we both know that there's a lot of different decisions that go into deciding to buy a home. It's what floor plan works best and what community do I want to live in and what features should I be looking for. There's so many different decisions that need to be made. And I think relying on the website to give that kind of a standardized message, rather than relying on all your salespeople and hoping that they're all saying the same thing, I think that's really important. That's a really good point.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: It also gets into just how people today interact with every company, not just home building.
We become used to doing it a certain way.
And often home building is a little behind in some of the opportunities and willingness that they are to engage online. Not every builder, there are some that are really pushing the envelope, and that's great, but a large number are still kind of waiting or saying, well, it doesn't really matter or whatever. And when you can find more information about small hundred dollar purchases compared to what you can find about 500,000 or million dollar purchases, it's really a disconnect for the consumer when they can see all these reviews, all these pictures, all these things about something that's relatively inexpensive compared to one of the largest purchases that they will ever make in their life.
It's kind of a disconnect and it frustrates people sometimes.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a good point. And it's so relevant. I mean, we stumble across that all the time when we go out and review websites and that sort of thing. And it's like, I mean, everyone's doing their best, right? But I mean, we've stumbled across some websites from like, how do they even sell houses? There's just no info here, there's no pictures, there's no write ups. It's like there's just nothing here. You know, there's no substance, nothing to sink your teeth into as a consumer that, you know, get you excited and want to proceed down that path with that person. Right. It can be surprising, for sure. I'm sure you see that as well.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, if we're fair, if a builder gets the right piece of dirt in the right location and is smart about the kind of product that they put there, they're going to sell. They're going to sell homes whether their website's any good or not.
The website is not the only element that comes into play as what is happening across the whole company. However, there is definitely an opportunity to do even better. And it's about incremental improvement or sometimes multiplicative improvement, not just incremental of what is possible because so many people are engaging online. First, I think, Jeff, one of the big misses that I see with builders is the idea that they don't recognize that they're tracking their info. All of this data that they can collect doesn't pick up the misses, it only picks up the hits so we can compare. We got this many yesterday, this many today, this many tomorrow, whatever it is. But we rarely see the number of folks who searched that might have been a customer but didn't find us. Right. We don't see that number anywhere, the number that never heard of us because we didn't show up when they were looking. We never see the number that clicked on our website, but it was too slow, so they left. Right. We don't see that number the kind of way, we don't see the ones who even came to the website and then gave up before they did a lead. We start to see some traffic there that drops off. But again, how many of those were sales ready to happen because we had what they wanted, but they couldn't figure that out. You know that those numbers are much harder to quantify of lost opportunity. How many people looked at the website and went, ooh, that's ugly, nevermind, we just don't know those numbers very clearly. Yeah, we can see some traffic and bounce rates and things like that, but often we miss out on the lost opportunity. And especially if you're trying to grow and sell more and expand, those are the places where you want to go get those buyers that are a good fit for you that you don't even realize you're losing out on sometimes.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a good point. I mean, a savvy marketer can kind of draw some conclusions around some of that Google search console and stuff like that. But I find that and your experience probably similar. But a lot of people that don't spend their time full time in the digital marketing realm, a lot of these things they're just not aware of. Right. I mean, so many times we stumble across builders and like, I don't have Google Analytics on my website. You know, we're not connected to Google search console. Right. It's like there's so much data and so much insight there available to you that can help you improve and build a better, more effective website. So, yeah, it's. It can definitely be a challenge and you're so right. Like what we don't know. That's. That's a big factor.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Definitely.
I'm shocked when we still run into folks who are not doing any tracking whatsoever. It used to be a higher percentage. I think it's getting better, but there's still plenty that, or the ones that have it and never look at it, don't even know what to do with it, which I get.
It's not their core competency. It's not the thing they spend most of their time doing.
But if you want to drive it forward, those are some of the tools you need to learn how to use.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, to anyone that's listening that maybe has a website, but they don't have those tools on, like go to Google Analytics. At the very least, just get it connected to your website and starting to collect data. Because then at some point down the road, when you do decide to hire somebody in digital marketing, whether that's in house or an agency or something like that, you have something that you can look back on, right? You have data and metric and numbers, so you can start to paint a bit of a picture of what your starting point looks like and then from there you're able to create that plan on how to get to where you want to go. Right?
[00:12:18] Speaker B: Completely agree. Completely agree.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: So, Greg, what are some other unique challenges that you're seeing out there that people are kind of starting to bump.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Into as far as what builders themselves are running into or their buyers.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
Let's focus on the builders. What are some unique challenges, maybe while especially considering we're talking about websites, what are some of the unique challenges that you're seeing builders bump into in the realm of websites?
[00:12:46] Speaker B: So I think when we talk about larger builders that have more going on, one of the core challenges that I'm seeing grow now is their challenges around data management. And this has to, and this is not very exciting to talk about. Completely, completely get it? So please stick with me for a minute. All right. Don't just click off because. Oh, here we go. The tech guy talking about data.
But with all the community model floor plan information, the inventory, homes, all of that data, that is the product that goes into keeping all of that connected and updated is something that is becoming more and more important in today's Internet ecosystem, if you will. And it is something that you can do manually. If you have a handful of communities, a dozen models or what, or whatnot somewhere in that level, okay, you're fine. But when you start to get to the builders that have, you know, 15, 2030 communities, they're dealing with, you know, 50 to 100 plans, they've got inventory coming and going. It's being sold. Things get out of date quickly.
Things are difficult to, or it's expensive to manage manually. And being able to recognize that both from a internal technology process, like how can we get this out of our in house systems into the website, as well as just from the website standpoint of keeping this content up to date? And then we get into the distribution side of how do I share this data with other parties? For example, a zillow or realtor.com or livable things of that nature that want that data and want to help drive leads back to you if you can get it. There's apps and chat bots and things that can use that data as well.
That is, in my mind, becoming the new big deal in website management is really this idea that the typical site say with something like a WordPress that isn't put together properly from a data structure, it's only page driven, becomes much harder to keep all that data up to date. You've got to have those extra data structures underneath it, which you can do in a WordPress as well if it's done properly upfront or you need something that's put together more in a homebuilder platform type of concept. And that's an area that we see really growing and becoming even more important over the next few years. If you're going to start to get into selling homes online, which builders are experimenting with, and buyers are more ready than you might think to go there.
This data connectivity piece as well, underneath the website, you know, as a whole, is really growing. And again, marketers don't always think about data the same way that programmers do. And so it's totally, totally understood until they're the person who's sitting there having to click 100 times to update prices every morning. Then all of a sudden the marketer's going, there's got to be a better way than doing this. This way. So I think that was kind of long winded answer, Jeff, but I really think it's not very exciting. But I really see that as one of the growing areas of concern.
And we are starting to talk to more and more builders that are of coming and saying, hey, is there a better way to deal with all of this than what we have been doing? And the good news is, there is. The bad news is it takes a little bit of work to get it all set up and put together. So.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's such a good point. Like, it's. It's funny because being on the other side, too, sometimes we're like, we wish people would move faster. I don't know if you can relate to that, but for me, I'm like, pull the trigger already. Right? Like, you're just. Every day that goes by, we're missing out on leads, we're missing out on nurturing.
Pull the trigger and get something going. But then in other areas specifically, like what we're talking about right now, the website and data structures and stuff like that, that's the one area where it's like, can you slow down and make some decisions, like some big decisions, do some planning and understand the overarching data structure and understand how all these pieces all fit together.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
I got an interesting question I like to ask people. That is, what is a commonly held belief, and in this case, as it relates to websites, what's a commonly held belief that you passionately disagree with?
[00:17:17] Speaker B: I think where I would go with that today, given our particular topic, is the idea that the website doesn't sell, that it's an expense, not an investment. And the difference between an expense and an investment for me is an expense just cost me money. It's a marketing expense. I have to have it because they tell me I have to have it, and I'm not excited about spending that money. An investment is supposed to generate a return. It's supposed to give you something more than what you put into it. And a properly done website should be an investment, and that means that it should pay for itself and pay for itself quickly. And so you shouldn't have to worry about, quote, how much it costs. If you sell an extra ten homes this year, then probably the first two more than paid for the website, if not the first one. Often we do some ROI calculations and it really only takes one more incremental home sale to usually pay for your investment in a brand new website.
And if you can turn that into one home per month or one home per community per month, all of a sudden the return on that investment is ginormous. But yet we sit there and we, I don't know, that's a lot of money. It's like, compared to building a model home. Are you kidding me? You know, it's like, no, that's not a lot of money. You know, what are you talking about? And yet it's because I think they don't see the connection as clearly as they could to the sale because there is some time lag between the web lead and the sale. And of course, that's where a lot of what you do, Jeff, comes into play, is helping people during that time, after that initial lead and moving them through that process, which is so part of it. But sometimes they forget how much of their traffic is coming through the website. And gosh, if we can just increase that just a bit or we can just convert just a few more, what does that turn into from a sales standpoint? When you're selling things that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, it just doesn't take very many to pay for it. But yet we still run into this misconception that that's just an expense and I didn't budget for it this year and I'm going to have to wait till next year. And of course, all right, I'll be honest, I'm selling something. All right, I get it. Okay. You can discount whatever I'm saying because this is the guy trying to sell me a website. But I really believe this, that there is a need to view it from that ROI lens that changes everything.
If I can rant on for a little bit longer, we do a little bit of work in the e commerce world. What's interesting about e commerce as well is because the sale is so much closer to the web lead, they're making the purchase often on the same visit, or maybe a second visit coming back. You know, I mean, there's some that are, depends on the product, but we get you know, clients that are like, again, talking about maybe a Google budget, it's like, you can spend as much as you want as long as I get a three x order volume to spend. Right? They call it return on ad spend or roas. And it's like, as long as I'm getting a three x return, crank up the budget, I don't care. I'm. How much you spend because I'm getting more sales out the other end. When you do that, then of course we have to manage the campaign to make sure we hit those targets because you couldn't crank it up to where you're no longer hitting that target. And that's real. Builders don't see that the same way because of some of that disconnect. But it's still there. It's still there. At some point, if you can sell another one, wouldn't you want to?
So. All right, rant over. Sorry, you pushed a button. There we go.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: That's good. That's good. It's so important because I hear the same thing, right? Like, we're a HubSpot certified partner agency, and it's the same thing when we start talking about requirements for HubSpot in order to build, like, a lead nurturing program, you know, it's like, hey, here's the quote for HubSpot. And they look at it and they go, ooh. I'm like, yeah, but if we can sell two houses this year as a result, just two, you know, or however many it is, it's completely paid for itself and you've put profit in your.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Pocket, like, and you still have the system there.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: And you have.
And you have ten more months to sell more homes to cover it for next year.
Yeah, so I hear you. It's just shifting that mindset, really. And I think you're right. Like, a lot of the times it's not. Maybe it's not understanding. Is this an investment or is this, you know, an expense? Right. Yeah, it's a really good point.
When it comes to websites, Greg, obviously, this is your wheelhouse. What is something that you think people need to stop doing when it comes to websites? Building websites.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: What they need to stop doing is ignoring their website. You know, they put all this effort into it. Let's assume you totally get it and you're like, I'm a believer. I'm ready to go. Sign me up. I put in all this effort, and then we think that we're done.
We think that the completion of the site has now gone live. That's the end of the effort and the reality is that's just a new beginning. Now the tasks that we're doing change. It's the end of one set of tasks and the beginning of a new set of tasks. But the idea of build it and they will come is ended with the field of dreams.
It's not there anymore. And for those of you who are too young to have any clue what I just said, I'm sorry. Google it. But the idea that we need to keep working the website and this is again, getting into the marketing activities that drive traffic and get the website in front of the right audience is really that next piece that needs to be part of the whole plan. We talk to a lot of folks, I need a website and we do a website project and then it's like, okay, we'll come back. We need any help. It's like, well, wait a minute, it's like, no, there needs to be this other piece, this ongoing marketing activity that continues to drive the traffic. And we're trying to do a better job of talking about that upfront because we also recognize that sometimes it's just a little overwhelming to talk about everything that's possible and we need to do it in bite sized chunks, so to speak.
But I think that's really where I would go there is we need to start recognizing that marketing is all tied together and we need to be doing all of these things, including nurturing leads and all of that that goes into it and using the website in that process as well by pushing them back to read more content and consume more content and keep them coming back for more and more and track that. So we see that they're progressing and understand all that works. And I think, Jeff, you know a thing or two about some of those opportunities as well. But yeah, there's more than just building a site and being done with it.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you're preaching.
I feel the same way. I mean, it's just so important to, especially that coming back to the website over and over and over again. Right. An example or an analogy I often use is it's like all the components of marketing, you know, all the different tactics that we're using are all like components of an engine, right. And if you want that engine to get really good output, you need to use those different tactics, including the website, all in a very specific way. Right. Like your email marketing should be done a certain way with a certain objective, and your social media should be done a certain way with a certain objective. And when everything is working kind of harmoniously, that way, that's where you begin to develop this marketing system. And things just kind of start to gain momentum, that flywheel turns and. And you start getting lead flow, and then you have a lead nurturing system in place, and then you can push people through to the sales team when they're ready to buy and agree that the website is. It's the engine block, right? Like it's the hub. Everything relies on the website today.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Completely agree. I love the idea of calling it a system. Right. It's because often we break it down into, oh, I need somebody to do x, I need somebody else to do y. And we don't always keep it together as that overarching strategy. And where does this fit? Why are we doing x? Why are we doing y? That sounds really weird. Why are we doing y?
But we need to understand strategically what are the reasons why we choose this particular activity or tactic or investment. But recognize, too, that all of it touches those buyers at different times, different places, different ways. And it's the sum total of all those exposures that pull people through. It's rare that you can really say, oh, they saw this one ad or they saw this one email, and that did the trick. Right. That's the clinch. And we'll just send that one now and we'll only do that one thing because that's the one that gets everybody over the finish line. Well, the reality is that all these other things queued them up so that that pushed them over the edge there.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's a topic I really love is that mapping the buyer's journey. And if you're using the right analytical tools on your website and you're creating good content, you can start to map out which pieces of content can be attributed to that particular sale. But I agree. I don't think there's ever that one piece. It's not ever that, like, well, that one ebook that they downloaded that drives all our sales, that might be the one that kind of nudges them over the fence, but it's all the other pieces that they scale the fence on top of. Right. And I think that that's a really good point in that we got to keep them coming back. You got to keep them coming back. Like, when it comes to email marketing, a lot of the conversation that I have is that you should, like, you shouldn't be sending a broadcast email to every single person in your contact database. Newsletter is a different story. Okay. But generally speaking, when you're nurturing leads, they should be highly focused, highly targeted emails that go to a particular segment. But the whole purpose of it is like training Pavlov's dog when you get the ding in the inbox and it's an email from the builder because they're focusing on delivering value.
It's okay to open and it's okay to click because I'm going to learn something. And they come back to the website. Back to the website. Back to the website. Yeah, I think that that's just such a, such an important piece in the whole marketing mix.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Really completely on board with you there.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: So, Greg, when it comes to websites, what's something that you're seeing a lot of people trying to do now that you've discovered a better method for?
[00:28:21] Speaker B: So we did some research about a little over a year ago, Jeff, and we've got the full details and study available@bluetangerine.com. if anybody's interested. But one of the things that was really insightful that came out of that was how important location is to the prospective buyer when they come to a builder's website. And so when we step back and look, one of the goals that most builders have is creating like an emotional connection with the product, with their offerings, which totally makes sense, and we want that.
But ad agencies in particular have, in my opinion, push that emotional connection a little bit to the point of where we can no longer find the location information. Because it's all about lifestyle, it's all about community. It's all about happy people smiling by the pool or whatever it is, which is great.
We want that. We want to help people visualize what their life will be like if they live in this home and in this community and in this area.
But at the same time, we've got to have the map, we've got to have the location content, we've got to have the information there that helps people understand where is this home? Because I don't care how beautiful it is. If I'm trying to move to Dallas and you build in Atlanta, it doesn't matter, right? I can't buy your house. It just doesn't matter. That home is not for me. If it's totally off in the wrong location, don't waste my time. Even worse, I'm moving to Dallas and you do build in Dallas, but I can't figure that out. And now you've totally missed the lead because it's been too hard for me to figure out that you actually do build where I'm trying to go and have the home. That would be a perfect fit for me. But I can't feel confident in that. And it's too hard to find locations. So we've been really pushing, after really getting this data insight about that location was the number one thing they wanted to understand when they came to the builder's website of trying to figure out how do we better include the map again. Maps is one way to do that. You also need words that tell people, even though we all skim and scan and don't really read a, we still need those words. And let's not forget that Google also wants to know where you build because the searches primarily include geographic keywords that narrow in the search. I rarely search for show me all the new homes everywhere. No, I'm searching for show me the new homes in XYZ location.
And there's various versions of the types of geographic qualifiers that I will include in that keyword search. So you need those text indicators of location as well that help Google understand where do you build? And if you want, just especially if you're a smaller builder in a single metro area, not that you can, there's big builders in single metro areas. I don't mean to diminish that, but if you have just kind of a single location, just getting your company address and the footer on every page with the city, state and zip code in it can go a long way to telling Google, what location is this? You know, it doesn't mean we have to plaster keywords everywhere, but we do need to make sure that we're telling people, where do we build? They want to understand, what do you build and where do you build it? And if they can't figure that out, they're moving on. They're not going to dig deep if you don't make it obvious and easy for them to figure that out. So I feel like there's a real opportunity there to step back and balance better the lifestyle versus location kind of content.
I don't want to call it battle, but balance between those.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: No, that's so true. And I think another thing that I see a lot of the times, too, is webmasters filtering out ips. Like blocking ip addresses. Like, I'm up in Canada, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And when I'm looking at homebuilder websites in the US, sometimes I stumble across the site and it's like, oh, your ip is blocked. You're not allowed to view this website.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: No Canadians allowed. We're full.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: No Canadians allowed. And I think to me, I'm like, okay, I understand the purpose of why they did that. But, you know, the. It's, it's maybe they're looking at it as saying, well, it's irrelevant traffic, but people move from state to state and country to country all the time. Right. And so, yeah, it's not as, you know, maybe not as common as somebody moving intercity or even city to city within a state. But you've automatically eliminated yourself from being a potential. If I can't even look at your website, because if I'm 8 hours away and I can't see your website, well, I'm not going to drive 8 hours just to come and look at your show homes.
You're just not even on the map anymore. You've been eliminated.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a tricky one too, because sometimes a hosting company may be doing something because of some type of attack or security and may go too broad on that and you'll never even know it's there if it's working for you and it's not working for somebody else because you're local. As the builder looking at your own site, testing it, that's a tough one to always be aware that it's happening without digging a little deeper into your traffic logs of where's traffic coming from and making sure that you're getting traffic from relevant places.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. So obviously, Greg, you've been at this for a really long time and we all know that the entrepreneur's path is never a straight line.
So I'm curious, what is a failure that you've experienced along the way, maybe with building websites that you think a lot of people are headed for?
[00:34:11] Speaker B: Oh, Jeff, you don't make me expose my failures.
That's kind of.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: They were authentic and genuine.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a little personal. It's a little personal.
I think when you consider the types of failures that I'm seeing right now were very much a function of what's going on around us in the market.
We had this really interesting time that we call Covid.
That really changed. A lot of builders and mayems suddenly start looking at their websites very differently because the buyers were no longer willing to come interact in person. So all of a sudden, all the virtual tour people were backlogged because everybody was trying to get new virtual tours.
And then all of a sudden the builders were swamped and so they didn't want to market anymore. They're like, stop. The leads we can't handle anymore because we can't build fast enough, we can't get the supplies we need. You know, we've got waiting lists, you know, we're raising prices every other day, all these things. So they went there and then we came out of that and all of a sudden we had interest rate craziness where interest rates just changed. And it's not even the amount, it's just how quickly they change. That just kind of froze everybody for a little bit until they kind of got comfortable with the new normal. All of that makes people stop marketing. And I think the mistake that I've experienced is that when you stop marketing, it takes a long time to get that moving again.
You used the term flywheel earlier, and that flywheel has some inertia and some resistance to it. And when you slow it down or when you stop it completely, getting it cranked up again takes a lot more effort than it would have taken to have kept it moving along the whole time.
And so I feel like we're starting to see folks going, oh, my gosh, I really should have started this last year, or I really started, should have started this whenever.
It doesn't mean necessarily that you have to keep doing the same thing. If you're getting more leads than you can handle, maybe you back off on your Google Ad spend, okay, totally get that. Comfortable with that, right? You're just throwing down money for things you can't do but take that money and instead of going, hey, look, we can save money on marketing and make more instead. Take that and go, you know what? Maybe we should do a little more SEO work instead because those are seeds we're going to plant now that will grow and we'll harvest later as we improve. So it's more about a reallocation or a refocus when these things change and trying to take advantage of some of those projects that, all right, maybe we'll spend some time doing a little better integration with the back office so we can update the site easier over time and we'll save some time for the team later because right now we don't need to spend it on this ad or that ad instead. Or maybe we'll invest deeper in some of these drip campaigns that we've been putting off because we've got some opportunities to work on infrastructure as opposed to top need to lead now of moments.
I think that's a mistake that I've seen over and over again when we go through these cycles economically of things that cause us to either have to stop or cut back. And it's like you can't cut back the marketing if you're going to keep selling, it just isn't there if you're tight there's got to be somewhere else you got to go. And it doesn't mean that there isn't waste in marketing that could be improved and optimized. I'm not saying it, but when people just say, sorry, I can't afford it, it becomes a dust spiral. You lose your leads, you lose more sales, and all of a sudden, now we can't afford it, got to cut more, and you just kind of go down that drain, and it's really a terrible place to be.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: Oh, man. I 100% agree with you, and I've seen that, too, having been in the industry for 13 years, especially here in Alberta, which is, for those that don't know, a very heavy oil and gas focused province.
So with oil and gas industry being up again and down again and interest rates here in Canada, same thing. And then we have mortgage rules where current mortgage rates might be 2.99%, but you. You can't get approved for mortgage unless you qualify at 5.99, even though it's only 2.99. Just goofy stuff like that. Right? And so the market's constantly shifting and changing, and I see the same thing. When the industry and all the variables that we're used to dealing with are really healthy and people are just wandering into the show home nonstop, it's like, well, we don't really need to focus on filling the pipeline because we can't keep up. But inevitably, things happen. Markets shift and change in interest rates and all that, like you're just saying, and things slow down, and then at that point, what I see is marketers scrambling now, going, we need. We need leads. You know, there's no traffic in the show homes anymore. We need. We need to generate more leads. And it's our philosophy over here at velocity 23 is you should have an evergreen marketing machine that's just constantly filling the funnel and nurturing people through. And I agree with what you're saying, too, and that, you know, when things get a little bit tough or when things are super good and you don't need as many leads, reallocate don't axe, because once it's been axed, it's really hard to get back again. Right. We've managed for this long on this budget. Why do we need to increase it all of a sudden? So, yeah, reallocate is definitely the way to go. And I really just wanted to just touch on that point that you made, too, about maybe you're not spending it on Google Ads now or Facebook ads, if that's what you're doing. But focus and reallocate towards something more like organic SEO, which, like you said, can take three, six, nine months to see results from. Right. It's planting those long term seeds and I think that's really important. That's one area that I feel like a lot of homebuilders don't focus on is that organic SEO.
[00:40:20] Speaker B: Definitely more. More SEO is no longer optional, folks. I'm just going to say it out loud and the folks now, granted, one of the challenges is a lot of people been burned by some shady actors who over promised what's possible and said you could do it for $10 a month and be in all these places it takes. Investment SEO is not free, but it generates over and over and over again. It's a return on investment. It's an investment that will bring returns over time. And sometimes it takes a little longer to get those to start flowing in. But yeah, SEO is no longer optional.
[00:41:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I 100% agree. Greg, tell me about something that you and your team has accomplished recently that you're really proud of.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: You know, I actually just learned a little bit just a few weeks ago about a success one of our clients had. We helped them with the new website and they were participating in a self touring program with a company called Internow that I'm sure a lot of folks are familiar with. And we started better promoting the opportunity to tour the homes through the self touring within the website. And we saw some data that, that in the four months before they launched the new website and the four months after, the number of tours doubled, and it was all about telling folks that this option was available and helping them schedule it online through the website. And to me, that's really powerful. We talk so much about emotional connection with the home and getting people to fall in love with this home. And we do all these virtual things to try and make that happen on the website. But the reality is the best tool we have is actually getting them to tour the home. Let's not lose sight of that, the ability to tour. So when we saw that type of result and impact on the actual tours they were getting, that was really powerful to be able to see such a clear before and after with that. So we were pretty excited about that and trying to help folks recognize some of the opportunities that are there when they're using those types of tools.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. I think a lot of people sometimes lose sight of the fact that marketing and sales really is a series of yeses, right? Like it's. It's like building a cobblestone pathway or a paver, you know, paver, brick pathway. You got to lay them down one by one. Right? So, yeah, you've got this virtual tour on your website. You know, now you have self showings that you want to promote, but I. It's a poor expectation at some point or on some level to expect that it's just going to take off on its own. Right. Like, sometimes you put a tool in place and you have to build campaigns to promote said tool and warm people up and educate them about what it's about, but also understanding where that tool fits in that customer journey as well. Right. Like I would say to your comment about, you know, we can't just rely solely on virtual tours. And I totally agree with that. It's understanding that a virtual tour is designed to increase that emotional attachment and really see what is what's available when someone's still in couch shopping mode. Right. But ultimately, in that sales process or in that customer journey, we have to get their butts off the couch into the show home. Right. So it's just making sure that we understand what steps have to happen in order to make that happen. I think.
[00:43:52] Speaker B: I love that idea, Jeff, that we want to sell them a home at the end, but we need to sell them the next step in the process. First.
And often we forget that in our messaging. It's like, I'll just buy it, buy it, buy it.
But the reality is what we really want to sell them is take this next step, which is, hey, take a look at this, or, hey, come visit this, or, hey, read this and learn more. All of those types of opportunities, and they're all individual sales, if you will, of a next step because you're inviting them to take action. So call to action, right? Is really the correct buzzword as opposed to a sale. But recognizing what you were talking about is we don't need them to jump from step one to step ten all at once. We need to tell them how to get to step two and then how to get to step three. And if we understand that journey, the way that you've done some of that mapping work and really can see what is step two? If I don't even know what it is, how do I invite them to do it? How do I even recognize that that's where I want them to go? And so I love that idea of better understanding the journey, better understanding what is it that would be best for them to do next, to help them be comfortable, help earn trust, help educate, help them move forward and see and connect and understand what's available. And those are all pieces of it. And the challenges, of course, on the website, you're trying to deal with the person who's at step two and the person who's at step five and the person who's at step eight all at the same time and making sure that you're getting them to see the right piece and the right time. And that's really one of the challenges with all of it.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: I agree. I agree. Because you can't talk to everybody the same way, especially when you're using that philosophy of how do I just get people to take that very next step? Right.
And I think that just is like kind of a hat tip towards the importance of understanding buyer Personas and making sure that you have, you know, lead nurturing pathways for all your different Personas, because that's another topic, too. And I know that you encounter this a lot as well. It's like a downsizer's information needs are completely different than a first time buyers information needs. Right. A downsizer's purchased a few homes in their lifetime and they don't need to know all about mortgages and finances and all that stuff. I mean, it, sure it comes into the equation, but it's not as huge of an information requirement as somebody that's a first time buyer that has spent their life renting, as an example.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: Completely agree. Completely agree. We, I saw a presentation not too long ago about some generational differences in homebuyers, and that was one of the big things. It's like if you're selling to boomers, for example, they're not worried about financing, they're not worried interest rate buy downs don't matter to them because they're going to pay cash. And again, this is a broad generalization, but compared to that first time buyer who is struggling to get the down payment together, that's a whole different kind of opportunity and need to understand process and opportunities and things there. And so it really does come down to who is our prospective buyer that we want to be in front of that we're trying to sell to, and then also adjusting sometimes when somebody else shows up who doesn't fit what you thought they were going to be, but likes your stuff and wants to buy it anyway. And so you got to be able to deal with both or all ten.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: All ten, yeah. No, that's a big part of the process that we go through with our clients is understanding the different buyer Personas or the stages of life that they're in the buying their first home or they move up downsize? Are they an investor? Maybe they're a realtor. It's totally different information needs for a realtor as well. Right. So. But again, the, you know, just to really drive this point home is that all of that information that those people have needs for in that buying journey all exists on the website. That's just how important the website is in this whole mix. It's really the hub.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Agreed 100%.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: So, Greg, we've talked about a lot of cool, different things today, but one of the questions I love to ask people, because I'm a bit of a tech nerd myself, is what do you see as some of the emerging tech that's coming down the pipeline that's really going to shape the future of the home building industry?
[00:48:18] Speaker B: I really think that the biggest opportunity isn't necessarily one particular piece of technology, but it's the online purchase process. The buying homes online is really where I think we're headed. And we saw a huge interest during the COVID time in all of that. And you saw some large national builders kind of publicly announced that they were experimenting with it and offering it. And ever since kind of COVID ended it all kind of faded back away. We got busy with other things. We kind of went back to the way we were doing it before. But the buyers have been changed by all of this and this ability to engage online and to shop. And I mentioned our research study earlier, we found that there's about 28% of buyers who are already willing right now to buy a home completely online. They want it, they're looking for it, and builders aren't offering it. Now, that doesn't mean that that person won't end up still buying a home. If they need a home, they'll figure out how to do it. But it does mean that the builder who will put that kind of a process in place is going to connect with them faster and going to be comfortable or make them comfortable with that purchase in a way that their competitor might not. And these are not age different, it's not just younger buyers. This data was fascinating that it crossed all of the demographic categories between age, gender, income levels. All of that was. Was not specific. It had to just do more with a personal attitude and comfort level with online in general that drove it. And I think that's only going to grow as more builders make that possible. As more buyers engage in that way, it's going to become something that people will come to expect. Not everybody. There will always be buyers that want to do it the way it's been done. And that's fine. We need to accommodate them as well. And it also is nothing, a self service, never talk to anybody model. When I talk about buying online, I still believe there's a role for sales team support, online sales counselor support, all of those types of personal interactions.
But what it means is even visiting in person will still happen. Even if I'm going to go home and make my final decision and purchase at 11:00 p.m. on my couch and go, okay, we've looked at all of them. This is the one we want. Let's go ahead and grab it, reserve it, make sure it's ours until we can get back in there. Or do the contracts online, do the financing application online, all of those kinds of pieces.
That's where I think we're headed.
How fast we get there, I don't know. I'm not that prophetic to make any claims, but I do believe we're headed there. I do believe there's opportunities for the builders who go there. And here's the good news, Jeff. Everything that you need to help somebody buy online, all the parts and pieces, also help them engage better with your product, understand what you have to offer, understand what it costs, where it's located. All of those questions, they have all those questions whether they want to buy online or not. And so putting all of those parts and pieces in place, making it easy to keep that content up to date with data feeds, all of those parts and pieces that are needed for online home buying, raise all of your other opportunities to sell at the same time. So moving in that direction doesn't waste anybody's time or money or effort whatsoever, in my opinion.
[00:51:57] Speaker A: Oh, exactly, exactly. Yeah. We often talk to prospects and clients about that, too. Is that like we're.
If you look at consumerism, it's now primarily focused around convenience and self serve. Right. And you go to a grocery store and there's self checkout.
That wasn't a thing ten years ago.
And I think that you're right in that this industry is going to get that way as well. But regardless, when it comes to the homebuyer's journey, what we've seen is that people still want to get answers to their questions, but they want to do it on their own time, at their own pace, and without the involvement of a salesperson. So again, it just really amplifies the importance of having a really great website and having the content on that website that's really required in that home buying journey, because those people don't want to have to talk and ask questions of the salespeople until they're ready to do that. But we still have to keep them engaged through that part of the process, that information gathering part. And I really think that there's just so much emphasis on having to have a really solid website with great content and great structure to it. Well, Greg, we covered a ton of really awesome information today about websites. It's something that obviously, we both have a shared passion for. I like to wrap up these interviews with this fun little rapid lightning round where we just ask some personal questions and get to know you a little bit better. So are you ready for that?
[00:53:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. Bring it on.
[00:53:33] Speaker A: Awesome. All right, question number one. What is your favorite book and why?
[00:53:38] Speaker B: All right, well, I read a lot, so I don't have just one favorite, but I have kind of a more recent favorite. I read both business books, but I also like to kind of escape with some fictional fantasy type type things. I love authors who can create alternative worlds that you can go visit. So one of the ones that I've been in lately is by Brandon Sanderson, and it's a series of books that are called the Stormlight archive, I believe is what he calls them. And there's multiple ones. But really impressed by the ability to create multiple worlds that you can go visit and step away from the day to day for a minute.
[00:54:17] Speaker A: If you could have dinner with any three people that are alive, who would they be?
[00:54:22] Speaker B: Any three people? Well, I'm gonna have to.
I mean, Jesus Christ comes to mind immediately. That would be an amazing dinner to understand a little bit more. For lots of reasons, I would put, you know, I think probably folks I would find fascinating to talk to would be like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.
I think, you know, understanding some of their more day to day because there's been so much written about them that's so summarized and interpreted, but they've really learned what they were really thinking and doing at some of those. Those moments would be pretty, pretty fascinating.
[00:55:00] Speaker A: What's your go to? Comfort food, no doubt.
[00:55:04] Speaker B: Hands down. Mint chocolate chip ice cream.
[00:55:06] Speaker A: That's mint chocolate chip ice cream.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That's where I am. That's in the problem is that I go to it a little too much, and so I now have to go to it a little less, according to my doctor. So.
[00:55:22] Speaker A: Do you have a favorite brand?
[00:55:24] Speaker B: Briars. I do. Friars mint chocolate chip ice cream. Definitely. All the way. Nice.
[00:55:30] Speaker A: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
[00:55:35] Speaker B: You get lots of advice in life. I think one message that that has really served me well is recognizing that most of the time, most people are acting rationally from their perspective.
And so the idea, if they're doing something that doesn't make any sense to me, why would you do that?
What were you thinking?
You have to. I don't understand something about their view.
And if I can understand their view, then what they're doing and why they're doing it may make sense. And so if it totally doesn't make sense, then I need to figure out, how do I, if I am trying to truly deal with whatever that situation is, how do I understand where they're coming from? That would end up with a logical conclusion of, therefore, they're going to do x, y, or z.
And that's really served me well. Now, I don't execute that very well in many situations, for sure, because we all react emotionally. We're emotional beings.
But when we try to. To step back and say, why would they do it that way? Or what, you know, there's a reason. And sometimes they can't even articulate it. And you have to help them dig a little deeper to understand that.
[00:56:51] Speaker A: I love that.
One of the things that I often say is everybody has a story. And I think that when I think about what you just said and what I commonly say is that it's understanding that it was their story that made them how they are. And so that really resonates with me. I like that. That's deep. Greg, if you weren't in your current profession, what do you think you'd be doing instead?
[00:57:15] Speaker B: You know, I went, I went back and forth trying to decide if I wanted to get into computer science or if I wanted to get into finance. So I would probably see myself in some type of finance type position. You know, hopefully at some point, a CFO type type role of helping businesses make choices about where to invest, what to invest in, how to move things forward, how to achieve their goals and fund those activities. So that would probably be where I would see myself.
Or maybe I learned to be surfer. I don't know. Competitive surfing. No, just kidding.
Not me, but, yeah, something totally different.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: Greg, what's a skill that you've always wanted to learn but you haven't had a chance to learn it yet?
[00:58:01] Speaker B: I have always had on my list of something to learn how to build and maintain small engines. So, like my lawn mower, I would love to be able to understand how to take apart my lawn mower engine, put it back together and make it run better. Not that I'm passionate about mowing the lawn or anything like that. That's not the reason, but that's just something that's always kind of fascinating me, that the mechanics of all that. And I have never really spent the effort to explore that. So that's probably something on my list.
[00:58:33] Speaker A: What is your guilty pleasure? Tv show or movie?
[00:58:36] Speaker B: Oh, man, you really are getting personal on some of this stuff.
I mean, again, kind of into this same thing. Like what? I like to read places that can take me somewhere different and build that world. I love the Chronicles of Narnia series and those. Those movies and the way those came to life. You know, things like Star wars or Harry Potter as well. So I put some of those on that list for sure.
[00:59:01] Speaker A: If you could live anywhere in the world for an entire year, where would it be?
[00:59:05] Speaker B: I would be interested in experiencing something like Alaska for a full season. Honestly, I'm not a hot and humid lover. I spent enough time in Florida, lived there for a bit. So I'd love to see what it's like to experience that type of a different kind of climate from at least what I understand that they have. There haven't been yet, so. But yeah, I'd love to give that a try. I'm sure there's other places too. If I could probably come up with a longer list, but that one comes to mind.
[00:59:38] Speaker A: What's your favorite way to unwind after a long day?
[00:59:41] Speaker B: I love getting home, being home with the family, having a chance to talk to my wife, see the kids. Of course, they're not all home anymore, but got just the youngest. Still at home, but being able to kind of step away from work. Now, of course, I work from a home office, so it doesn't take very long to get home.
But being able to mentally disconnect and spend time with the people that I care about the most is really, you know, where. Where I'd like to be family man.
[01:00:14] Speaker A: Me too. I love that. If you could only listen to one genre of music for the rest of your life, what would it be?
[01:00:19] Speaker B: Oh, hands down, classic rock, right? The late seventies into the eighties. Definitely where I'm at. That's where my head is for sure.
[01:00:30] Speaker A: Nice. Love it. What's your favorite vacation destination that you've ever been to?
[01:00:36] Speaker B: The best vacation that I think we ever had is we went to Maui for a little bit. That's been a few years ago, and unfortunately they've had some challenges over the last year or so. But yeah, we had an amazing time there and love to try that again sometime in the future.
[01:00:52] Speaker A: What's the most memorable gift that you've ever received? And what was it?
[01:00:58] Speaker B: I'm gonna have to go back to family on that one because I've got six kids, and each one of them is the most memorable gift that I've received from my wife and from God, I guess, as well.
To see the sacrifice that she puts in to have made that happen and be able to have that in my life, it's a gift that keeps giving, and it is something that's just pretty amazing. So, yeah, definitely each of them is really to the great gift.
[01:01:29] Speaker A: If you could time travel, would you go back to the past, or would you go to the future? And why?
[01:01:34] Speaker B: Well, I mean, if you go to the future and get some stock tips, that would be pretty powerful, right? That if somebody back in the eighties could have seen where Apple stock is today, you know, that would have been pretty powerful.
I would probably want to go to the past. I would like to see some of the things that are today, you know, those wonders of the world, those ruins that we're not quite sure where they came from or why or how. And to kind of get the true story behind some of those civilizations and whether that's pyramids in Egypt or some of the things in Central and South America or.
I wouldn't want to stay very long because they don't have air conditioning. I want to make sure we get back quick, but I'd love to go visit for a bit and understand more about how those societies worked and what they were doing to create some of those amazing archaeological opportunities there.
[01:02:30] Speaker A: What's your favorite beverage? Alcoholic or non alcoholic?
[01:02:34] Speaker B: I am a classic coke kind of guy all the way. That's not an alcoholic drinker.
However, I am in the process of transitioning to coke zero. So to be completely transparent.
But, yeah, that would be where I would go outside of a good, fresh glass of ice water. Can't beat it on hot day, but, yeah, that's where I'm at.
[01:03:00] Speaker A: And last question for you, Greg. What is something that's on your bucket list that you're determined to accomplish?
[01:03:06] Speaker B: This is probably going to be a strange one, but as parents of six kids, one of our bucket list is getting them all through their bachelor's degree debt free. That's one of our huge goals, and we're determined to make that happen.
We're making some progress on it. You know, four of them had finished their bachelor's degrees. Got two to go.
But, yeah, that's a big one on my bucket list. It may not be that exciting to as far as visiting places or skydiving or anything like that. But that's the kind of thing that we're really focused on right now.
[01:03:42] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. That resonates big with me because I'm the same way. I mean, I grind it out, sacrifice every day because the only thing that's driving me is giving my kids that easy future. So I love that. That's cool.
Greg, it has been absolutely amazing having you on the show. I really enjoyed our conversation.
We definitely think along the same lines and really both believe that websites are such a vital role in the whole process.
Before we wrap up, any final thoughts and please share with us where people can get a hold of you.
[01:04:21] Speaker B: I would say that I just want people to feel comfortable with this idea that a website should be something that generates sales and it should generate a large portion of your sales. And if it is not, it is not because websites don't work, it's because your website isn't working. And the good news is, is that your website can be fixed. Fixing it might mean replacing it completely, it might mean just a few tweaks. It might mean getting the right traffic coming to it, that you're just not getting it in front of enough people for it to do its work. But websites will help you sell, and if it's not, there's an opportunity there to improve that. And so just don't just discount it and say, gosh, ours doesn't do anything, so therefore we're not going to invest. You're going to get caught in that same, that same loop, that same cycle. That's just going to keep it not doing anything because you're not investing. You should get your money back, though, from those investments. So that would be kind of my last words, my last thought. If anybody wants to connect with me, greglutangerine.com is my email. Happy to help. However, I can also very active on LinkedIn, so if you'd like to find me there. There are a few other Greg Brays on LinkedIn, I discovered. Don't you hate it when people steal your name and don't even know who they are? But I think if you search under Greg Bray and blue tangerine should pop up. There's not a lot of other blue tangerines, so that's good. But yeah, and if you want to check out that research study, you can find a link to that on our website@bluetangerine.com. and I would also, Jeff, you mentioned at the very beginning that we've got the home Builder digital marketing summit come up. It's going to be in October this year in Raleigh, North Carolina. We'd love to have folks join us there. Going to have some great presentations and a great opportunity for you to network with other folks who are in the marketing space and home building so that you can build your own network. We found that a lot of marketers are kind of only one or two people in the shop, and a lot of builders are on an island by themselves. They often don't have peers that they can connect with and talk to and be able to share ideas with. And so we're really trying to give them a tribe in a way that they can come together and find each other and build some relationships that go well beyond just spending a couple days at a conference. So that's buildermarketingsummit.com is where you get all the information there. Love to have you join us. Thanks so much for having me, Jeff.
[01:06:50] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, Greg. And definitely make sure you check out the summit. Have talked to people that have attended, and it's nothing but rave reviews.
Real amazing, real amazing conference. So definitely check it out. Greg, thanks again for your time. I super appreciate it and I'm always looking forward to continuing to connect with you on LinkedIn and seeing at the various events around in the industry. So thanks again for your time. I appreciate it. And for those of you listening, if you enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to subscribe to the show. We're trying to build our following, build up the audience, give us a rating, and yeah, check out some future episodes. We're always doing mini snippets. HubSpot tips for home builders is a big one that a lot of people are looking for. We do little mini segments on that. We do little mini segments on digital marketing tips and sales tips and things like that. And we've got a bunch of really exciting guests lined up coming down the pipeline. So thanks again for tuning in and hope you have a great one. Talk soon.
